MASTER OF THE GNOME? RONNIE JAMES DIO TACKLES BOTH THORNY QUESTIONS AND GARDEN ORNAMENTS

Interview: GARRY SHARPE-YOUNG

Ronnie James Dio has just returned from a round of dates in South America and is now deep into media promotion for his new studio album ‘Master Of The Moon’. RJD is probably one of a handful of seasoned performers that can boast four decades in the business. Having fronted, and given a creative renaissance, to two of Rock’s biggest names, RAINBOW and BLACK SABBATH, the singer’s own DIO outfit has, despite an expected ebb and flow of band members, for many years now been on a stable course of progression. DIO, the band and the man, has retained a steadfastly loyal fanbase that does not look to wither anytime soon.

The new album sees a return for guitarist Craig Goldy and drummer Simon Wright with DOKKEN’s Jeff Pilson, another former DIO man, supplying bass. For live work Pilson’s commitments to his own WAR AND PEACE project put him out of contention, so the veteran Rudy Sarzo, a man citing well known credits with QUIET RIOT and OZZY OSBOURNE, took up the challenge. Ronnie, as expected, sails through the questions about the new record and is then quite open about dealing with some tough questions. The singer is now battle hardened when it comes to queries on his former acts, but I thought it worth trying my luck in some areas not normally ventured into. I need not have feared, Ronnie did not duck the issues, took it all in his stride and illustrated once again why he is such a masterful storyteller.

Onto the album first though. If you haven’t got it yet, let me tell you that ‘Master Of The Moon’ is dark - it’s very dark. Don’t expect any whimsical flights of fantasy, the flapping of dragons wings or pastoral rainbows. Lyrically this is a very heavy record so the obvious first question is just why is this record so bleak in nature?

“Yeah, it’s dark” Ronnie admits. “That was intentional because at this point in time there is just too much going on in the world for me to be able to sing about dragons again. I mean, anyone, anywhere in the world can turn on the TV news and see the same horrific things as I see, because it really is a global phenomenon. I don’t think we’ve ever really experienced so much terrorism, famine, murder and war as right now. It’s actually pretty miserable, so not really the environment to write happy songs.

With ‘Magica’ I went straight back into the world of fantasy and that worked really well. Then with ‘Killing The Dragon’ I took the band back towards the early DIO albums, to reflect that side of the band but this time around I just went with how I felt. There was no theme or idea really. It did turn out very dark though, very heavy in every sense of the word. If I had to compare it to anything I’ve done in the past I guess it would be BLACK SABBATH’s ‘Dehumanizer’.”

I would advise people maybe just getting into Metal that ‘Master Of The Moon’ would not be a place to start listening to DIO. This album seems aimed straight at the faithful in the sense that, unless you have experienced ‘Holy Diver’, ‘Dehumanizer’, ‘Magica’ and ‘Killing The Dragon’ you just won’t get this one.

“Y’know, I think you are probably right there in some way” he agrees. “It might be a difficult record to get into if you are not familiar with DIO. I can see your point. That’s an interesting thing too though, because even though I have made records through ELF, RAINBOW, BLACK SABBATH and DIO we still get young kids getting into the band in a big way. People tell me ‘Wow, I just bought ‘Dehumanizer’ and I think that’s just incredible. But, yeah, ‘Master Of The Moon’ is part of a body of work in that sense I suppose. Everything is a kind of logical step on from the next.”

Where did you get the title ‘Master Of The Moon’ from? Also, I notice that the last few records are very much themed on the artwork now. Would you agree?

“For the artwork I used Marc Sasso, who did ‘Killing The Dragon’ too. I like his work, and we work well together because he understands that a DIO album must look like a DIO album. That means high quality artwork, which conveys a broad message of the album content. I wish we could package CDs in the old large album covers because I think that we’re really missing that aspect of the record as a whole. When you think of the RAINBOW, BLACK SABBATH and DIO covers there have been some really great pieces of artwork though and I think its kind of a shame to reduce them down to CD size. I know a lot of fans feel that way too.

The title was simply chosen because it sounded strong, the words just felt right as an album title.”

Let’s deal with some of the subject matter you deal with on the album. The album opener ‘One More For The Road’ at first sounds like a bit of a Rock n’ Roll cliché, but both musically and lyrically it’s anything but. I would say your lyrics here are very cynical.

“Yes they are. I’m glad you listened to it properly. It’s a very dark song, and really sets the mood for the rest of the record. ‘One More The Road’ is not about anything frivolous. It’s actually about crucifixions, executions. The title refers to the almost carefree way humans were being disposed of.”

I can’t quite get a handle on ‘The Man Who Would Be King’.

“OK, that one actually goes back to the ‘Magica’ project. There was a bunch of material written for what was going to be a second or third chapter of that record and that’s where that song came from. With ‘Magica’ my ambition outstretched itself and time constraints became an issue. I started off with a medieval idea, actually about the crusades and Richard the Lionheart. It kind of developed though from an historical piece to be brought right up to date. I could see a lot of parallels with what’s going on today. I still see armies being raised against what were then called infidels but today we call Islam, West vs. East being presented to the public as a fight between good and evil. Of course, it’s nothing like that. I’m not stupid enough to believe that every single Muslim in the world is anti-West. I’m sure they have the same core family values and sense of decency as we do. It’s just very easy for a government to brand something as black and white, good and evil. I don’t want to put myself into the political arena, because that is not who I am, but I could not help seeing some obvious similarities there.”

That’s not like you, to be writing an obvious lyric about politics and religion.

“It’s just my opinion, and I’m just a musician so I don’t think my observations on any of this are going to change the world in any way whatsoever. I would never presume. There are some things in this world though that are just so stark they demand humanity in general to act. I don’t try and get to obvious about it, because I’m an entertainer – it’s not my place. I think you’ll find politics and religion are always on the fringes of Rock music, they are universal issues. You just have to be careful with how you deal with it. For example, when people are starving, literally tearing up the ground to find bugs to eat while others are exploiting that by corruption, selling guns, harvesting drugs or whatever then I feel I have the right to comment on that.”

I deal with a lot of these issues on the album, drugs, paranoia, the break down of relationships, how our lives are being dictated by forces that are unseen and unanswerable. It’s pretty scary and its getting worse.”

The song ‘I Am’ seems to find you battling against all that though.

“Yes, it’s about the struggle to be true to yourself, to make your own way on your own terms. I’ve seen a lot of people give in to the pressures around them and make a real mess of their lives and hurt the people around them. The song is really saying you have to be strong when it counts because life is going to throw some very unpleasant things at you. Ultimately, if you can stay true to your convictions, look after yourself and your family and friends, you can achieve anything you want.”

That’s interesting. There must have been many times in your musical career when others have tried to force your hand creatively?

“Oh, of course. You soon learn though, from your mistakes and from the mistakes of others. I’m sure that these days people know I’m going to do my own thing no matter what. If it turns out good or bad at least it has been my decision.”

Was the talk of a Blackmore / Dio reunion in the mid nineties a case of that?

“No, I wanted that to happen and I was very open about saying I think it could have been a very worthwhile thing to do. I’m quite sad it did not happen, because I believe the timing was right for both Ritchie and I to do that.”

It was going to be just a one off right? A big gig, a film and maybe an album?

“Yeah, the plan was to film a gig in Tokyo. I think the fans would have loved it.”

So why did it not happen? You got back together with Black Sabbath for ‘Dehumanizer’, which I’m guessing would have required a lot more personal effort in the way of bridge building than with you and Ritchie.

“The reasons were not with either me or Ritchie. We never had any personal issues big enough to stop anything like that happening. He know how much I respect him. The Rainbow thing was just planned as a special event, something to reward the fans really. Why didn’t it happen? It was purely business with record labels and management. They just could not find enough common ground to work with. Creatively it was all there, no problem. I made the space in my career at that point for it to happen but there comes a point where you have to move on. A lot of these things happen because of timing. Someone might have a great idea but once you start dealing with other people’s careers and schedules it all starts to get complicated. It would have been cool, it’s a little regret I admit.”

Sounds like there might be hope of a Dio / Blackmore or Dio / Iommi alliance in the future?

“I wouldn’t rule it out but I could never imagine it being as BLACK SABBATH or RAINBOW. It’s unlikely, in fact it’s very, very unlikely. I think it would just be too much heartache for everyone concerned. None of us are going to put our careers on hold for something like that. So, RAINBOW or BLACK SABBATH – No. Working with Ritchie or Tony – maybe. There are no plans though, I can tell you that. They are both great people to work with but there is just so much more to it than that that often fans don’t seem to realize. It’s not a simple case of phoning someone up and saying ‘Hey, are you free right now to sing on this song?’ That’s why I’m ruling out any kind of band reunion thing. It would have to be a spontaneous thing, like the DEEP PURPLE tour. That was a very pleasant and rewarding thing to do, very loose.”

Do fans ask you that in such simplistic terms?

“Oh yeah. Why don’t you phone Tony? You have to explain.”

I’ve seen you in hotels after gigs explaining those kind of things to fans. I was always impressed by your patience.

“These are the people that buy my records and concert tickets. They have a deep interest in who I am, what I’m doing. It’s not a problem and you get a lot of useful feedback too. We’re very much the same – both music fans.”

A lot of singers these days are appearing on a lot of records now as guest performers on these Rock Operas and such like. We don’t see Ronnie James Dio’s name there though.

“That’s just not me. I don’t need to do that at all. I’m not saying those type of albums are good or bad, and I have involved myself in things in the past, but it has always been in a different environment. I’m not sure I like the idea of using singers just to get their name on the press release. I’m sure I could earn a lot of money by doing that but it’s not me and I don’t think my fans would want me to do it either. My energies are focused on DIO.”

Although Jeff Pilson played on the record you have Rudy Sarzo out on the road with you.

“Let me tell you, Rudy is a total joy to work with. There have been a number of times in the past where Rudy and I have nearly hooked up but he was always busy with QUIET RIOT. We also discussed this way back when he was working with Craig Goldy in DRIVER too. It has just been a matter of timing.”

Let’s change tack a little now from the new album. Last year internet rumours surfaced that you had severed your thumb in a gardening accident. Whilst I’m sure a lot of fans initially brushed this off as unlikely, it then transpired to be true. What actually happened on that day?

“It was a killer garden gnome” the singer says in earnest. “I’m not joking, although I certainly wish I was. What happened was that I was in my yard trying to place this garden gnome on a slope. This is a seriously heavy piece of garden ornament, probably 60lbs or so. Anyway, it fell over, I fell into the shrubbery and then began to slide down to the bottom of the hill. I was trying to stop myself with my feet but put my hand out at the wrong moment. You can understand this all happened in a split second. My hand landed on a rock, and the gnome landed on it, squashing my thumb between the rock and the gnome. Basically it was crushed and took the end of my thumb off. I just looked at my hand and the first thought that flashed into my mind was ‘How on earth am I going to make my devil horn sign now? That’s my trademark!’ I wasn’t worried about the injury, more concerned with my career.”

Did it enter your head that you had been struck by the ultimate Rock n’ Roll irony of a bizarre gardening accident?

“Oh of course it did. I was imagining all the headlines in my head. It had every comedy element and more.”

How did you deal with it practically?

“I just picked up the end of the thumb, went back into the house, washed the nub of my thumb then got myself down to the hospital. It was quite surreal because I had one hand with this crushed thumb, basically just red meat and miniscule bits of bone, and I was holding the end of the thumb in my other hand. It was quite fascinating. It’s not too often you get to see inside your thumb.

I got a shock when I arrived in the emergency room because a nurse took a look at it first and said “No, I don’t think we can save this”. I had to wait a while then for a doctor, all the time praying that he would come up with a different evaluation. Anyhow, he did thankfully. He said he could sew it back on. ‘Please do!’ I said, and that’s exactly what he did.”

Was there any pain or was it totally numbed out?

“Totally numb, no pain whatsoever. I think all the nerves got crushed or something. It looked like it should be painful, but it wasn’t. After it was sewn back on they did a proper job of it and now it’s OK. It looks a little distorted and the nail has not grown fully back yet but I’m thankful I still have my thumb and I can still do my horn sign.”

What happened to the gnome? Did you take revenge?

“Ah no, he’s still there. Only now he is on a very sensible level piece of ground. It wasn’t his fault, he’s an inanimate object but sometimes I look at that face and think… Y’know, he just has one of those faces! Put it this way, if I’m involved in another gardening accident you won’t have far to look.”

Forgive me, but that story just conjures up some hilarious images. It’s something a seasoned film writer would spend all his life trying to conjure up. Besides the obvious pain and shock you must have felt at the time it’s important to note that we’re both laughing about this.

“I could never be not humble in those circumstances could I? There was I suppose some kind of suppressed ‘shock’, but at the time, when it is actually happening, I think I automatically went into a kind of primal survival mode. I saw the end of my thumb, I picked it up and got it sewn back on. It really was that simple. There was no panic, just an immediate thought to how I could solve this. Out on the edge of my mind though, the comedy was starting to creep in though I have to admit.”

OK, onto something I’m not sure how you’re going to feel about answering, but I’ll give it a shot. I’ve always known you to be very gracious about all of the musicians you have played with, notably Ritchie Blackmore and Tony Iommi, but not it seems Vivian Campbell. Why is that?

“Hmmm” he ponders. “OK, this thing with Vivian, I’ve seen it building over quite some time, particularly on the internet. Some things attributed to me are not quite accurate I have to say because, at the end of the day, I simply don’t have any kind of problem with Vivian at all. I cared for Vivian, I always felt I had his best interests at heart, but it seems he feels differently. I always like Vivian as a person and I always felt that we got along fine within the band and worked well together. He is a brilliant guitar player, of that there is no question. That’s why I chose him. I cannot remember the last time we communicated it was so long ago. What I don’t understand is why, after twenty years now, this matters to him?”

Well, that’s the curiosity isn’t it? Vivien cut some very successful records with DIO to launch his career but obviously found fame with WHITESNAKE and DEF LEPPARD.

“Exactly my point. I don’t really know the exact details of Vivian’s grievance with me, I don’t think anyone does, but he has been very successful since DIO, so I just don’t see the need. He has a problem with me, well – that’s fine. I cannot dictate who likes me and who does not. I don’t understand why it is all so veiled though. I have not seen anything where he actually tells anybody what the problem is, just that there is one and he’s hurting. OK, we’re different people, different ideas. That’s to be expected but is he trying to say I was in some way cruel to him? You know, I don’t want to engage in a verbal battle of throwing stones but the things Vivien has said are just so outrageous without being specific. OK, I get the point you really don’t like me at all! Well, tell me what the problem is Vivian, tell everybody what the problem is because at the moment everyone is kind of scratching their heads over this one.”

I think the fact that he has made it abundantly clear he has a personal problem with you and that he won’t say exactly what it is that has made him feel this way leads to the suggestion that this is a money thing?

“Do you think Vivian is short of money? I don’t! No, in DIO the band was run in a way where everybody knew what their role was and people came in with eyes open. I’m not going to get into business matters except to say everything was out in the open, everyone was part of the same team and it was working. Those records were great, the touring was great. I felt we, as a band, achieved some great things at that time and obviously Vivian was part of that.”

Maybe he thinks you should be mentioning him in the same breath as Iommi and Blackmore?

“Er, well then that’s a problem I certainly cannot help him with! I’ve been truly, exceptionally lucky to work with Tony Iommi and Ritchie Blackmore, two of the greatest guitar players in the world. It’s interesting, both Tony and Ritchie have had differences of opinion with me that are far greater than anything I can conceive might be niggling Vivian, yet I’m still clear in my appreciation of their talents and in the fact they both spotted something in me. Those were some very special times and I feel I gave as much to Ritchie and Tony as they gave to me. I believe the records we did are evidence of that. RAINBOW and BLACK SABBATH are bands that have defined a whole style of music and I was honoured to be able to shape what I’m sure most people will agree are some very important records.

I chose Vivian because he had some qualities that I really liked. He had a very kind of spontaneous style and unpredictability that I really thought could lend a real spark to DIO. He is a brilliant guitar player and I’m happy to say that in spite of whatever problems he has with me. You have to be realistic though. Is he part of the exclusive club that Tony and Ritchie belong to? Of course not, it would be ridiculous to say so.”

So you really don’t know why he is so angry with you?

“No idea at all.”

So, this new record sees Jeff Pilson on bass but Rudy on tour.
Obvious question – where did Jimmy Bain go?

“You have to ask him because I really don’t know. We went into this record believing Jimmy was on board and the next minute he was gone. Complete surprise, no explanation. It was a shock because we’ve had Simon Wright on the drums now for a long time and I really wanted to hang onto that stable rhythm section. It is so important. Jeff saved the day. He did us a great favour, for which I’m very grateful. The thing with Jeff though was that he had a baby on the way so touring was simply out of the question. He had to get his priorities right so obviously we had no problems with that. Working with Jeff again was just great I have to say.”

You briefly mentioned money previously. Changing tack, I can recall in past conversations we’ve had where you told me that when you left BLACK SABBATH following the ‘Live Evil’ album everything was done properly and you were, and are still, being financially rewarded for those times. Obviously the prestigious status you find yourself in with RAINBOW, BLACK SABBATH and DIO has generated a comfortable lifestyle for yourself, but we don’t see you splashing it about like a lot of Rock stars.

“I’m truly lucky that my voice has given me a lifestyle that many, many people would aspire to. I’m blessed in that respect. I don’t examine royalty statements in great detail, counting the last cent, but I do obviously keep an eye on things and I’m very fortunate to have been involved with records that just seem to keep on selling, which tells me they are finding new generations of fans. There is a whole brand new set of fans now who are being introduced to ‘Heaven and Hell’, ‘Mob Rules’ and ‘Holy Diver’. I don’t think any of us at the time thought that a record would still be going strong decades later. That’s wonderful. We knew what we were doing was good, even special but you are so deeply involved in the creative process that nothing much else is on your mind.

Money in itself means very little to me and I spend it on things that are important to me, which is primarily my family. I come from a very, very large family, lots of uncles and aunts and cousins, and I strongly believe that the family is where my energies should be devoted outside of creating music. The money my endeavours generate enables me to further my passion of creating music and care for the people closest to me. That’s enough. I’m very private in that respect, as I’m sure you know, and I think there is a public Ronnie James Dio and a private one I would like the people who appreciate my music can respect too. And they do. I don’t get any hassle once I finish touring so I’m thankful for that.”

What’s your opinion on the current music scene? You’ve seen a lot of trends come and go.

“I have indeed. I don’t think I really want to pass judgement, it’s not my place. Do you really want me to answer that?”

Of course. Don’t name names, but I am interested to know what you think of today’s bands.

“What I see is a lot of energy, which is a good thing. This keeps coming up again and again, and I’ve learned to just focus on what I’m doing. I don’t think DIO fits into particular role right now. I do find an appreciation for the early years is still there. Increasingly it is being voiced by younger and younger fans too. Yeah, I understand the aggression and the energy and, purely for my part, hope that grows into something that a fanbase can grow with. That’s something BLACK SABBATH, RAINBOW, DEEP PURPLE the SCORPIONS and all these bands managed today. In their young days they were just as radical. They took their fans with them though on a musical journey through life. All of us get swayed from time to time, I think the ‘Angry Machines’ album was the one for us. We tried to incorporate some modern sounds and feel but it just ended up confusing, not DIO at all. The fans soon told us too. They had a problem with the songs, the sound and Tracy’s playing. OK, we learned, but you get back on course with a bit of guidance from your own heart and the fans.

The seventies and eighties are never going to come back. I don’t foresee a band rising to those kind of levels ever again. Everything now is geared towards instant gratification.”

I think you are trying to say that bands and labels are stuffing up by not fostering careers. Am I right?

“I guess I am. DIO has a career. BLACK SABBATH, DEEP PURPLE, JUDAS PRIEST, the SCORPIONS. These bands have careers. Ups and downs of course, fights, reunions, this is just part of life after all. It seems to me the emphasis is on selling 5 million albums in 12 months or lose your job, rather than selling ten times that over a lifetime. Do the math. In record companies you have good people and bad people, like any business. It just seems to me that now there is more energy put into marketing than getting the ingredients right in the first place. I think bands suffer for it. You see it on the turnaround of bands with the major labels because there does not seem to be anyone holding up the flag anymore saying ‘Hey, I believe in this band so let’s make it work’. I’ve had to deal with both sides of the coin. We were strengthened by Warner Bros. complete apathy towards the band when we recording ‘Heaven And Hell’ for example. They didn’t even want the band at that point. It really gave us a fire to prove them wrong and we did. I don’t envy the lot of new bands today, I really don’t.”

What do you say to people who believe you are operating in a comfort zone now? I mean that when we buy a DIO record, we know exactly what we’re going to get.

“I think I would say that I have a responsibility to look at it from my point of view and give the people I’m fortunate enough to call my fans exactly what they want. So I look at it from another way. I really don’t believe I’m in any kind of comfort zone at all. I mean, making records is not easy. It’s a creative process that requires a good degree of passion and determination.”

But are you never tempted to try something different? I’m sure you have the kind of voice that is versatile enough to cover a whole range of styles. For instance, it was great to hear you on the Deep Purple tour doing ‘Sitting In A Dream’ and ‘Love Is All’.

“It was great to do those songs and that whole tour was a quite incredible experience for me but if you are asking about DIO records I think I have an obligation not to stray too far from what makes the band work and what DIO fans want. It might gain me a lot of press to indulge in some kind of artistic experiment but how would my fans feel about that?

It has been a very, very long time since I have ever written anything in commercial terms. It just does come natural to me. Some people can do that, and do it very well but it’s alien to me. That’s why you won’t find an obvious single on a DIO album or anything purposely radio orientated. I really don’t think the DIO fan base would want that. You know, I just do what I do and I’m very fortunate to have a very loyal fan base that seem to want me to keep on doing it. Don’t expect anything too radical from me just yet.”                                   ~2004